Your Attachment Style is Impacting Your Marriage with Bev Mitelman

Introduction to Better Husband

Angelo Santiago: Welcome to Better Husband, the show that helps you answer the simple question, How can I be a better husband? I'm Angelo Santiago, and today I'm joined by Bev Mitelman. Bev is the founder of Securely Loved, a collective of relationship and attachment trauma practitioners, and we're going to be talking about attachment styles and what we can learn about ourselves within these styles, how we can improve our marriage and understanding where we fall in these categories, as well as the steps we can take to become securely attached.

We may also learn a lot about our spouse by understanding these different attachment styles and what they may need from us to help them feel more loved and secure. So stick around, you don't want to miss this.

Hey Bev, thank you so much for being on the show. I'm really excited to dive into these topics with you.

I have so many questions. I'm sure the listeners do, and I'm sure you have a lot to inform us. So thank you for being here. Let's get going.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: It's my pleasure. Thank you for the opportunity.

Angelo Santiago: Absolutely.

Understanding Attachment Styles

Angelo Santiago: You know, and I talked to you a little bit about this attachment styles to me is something that I like when I think about it, or I see the categories on paper. I'm like, yeah, I get it. Like, this makes sense. And then when I actually start reading into a little bit more, I'm like, there is a ton of depth here.

There's so much. To learn so much, to understand so much work that goes into uncovering more about myself as, as a man and as a husband. And so I'm excited to get into that with you, but for someone who's listening, let's just start at the basics. Let's just like ease into this, knowing that like, this may be a multi, uh, episode discussion.

Introduce the idea of attachment styles. Like where do they come from? Why is it important for us to understand them and how to, do they affect us in our marriage?

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: Great question. So I'll start at the beginning.

The Origins of Attachment Theory

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: This actually emerged with a set of research that started in the 1950s. And really what it was doing is it was observing how children behaved in the presence of their caregivers, very young children, like babies and toddlers. then in the study, they removed the appearance.

from the room. observed how the Children behaved and then they re integrated the caregivers into the room and they then again observed. And there were some really distinct patterns that came out of this. Some Children you can imagine were very distraught when their parents left. Um, some parent, some Children felt angry. Um, some Children display any emotions. And so it got people thinking, okay, what is this bond that we have? Right? And how did is how does it really affect us? So, um, when we're talking about attachment, we're talking about an emotional bond to another person. Okay?

Impact of Early Childhood on Attachment

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: Now, of course, we all know that the first You know, exposure to any level of attachment is those earliest days of our lives when we come into the world and we're just a brand new baby. Um, and in the first, you know, zero to five, zero to six years, we're incredibly suggestible, right? We're very young. We're in Entirely dependent as a species. We cannot survive without our caregivers, right? And so it's at that point in time that we learn some very, very critical things from our caregivers. what we learn is essentially how to engage with someone else. We learn either what a sense of safety feels like or not. Can I trust this person? Am I understanding emotions? Um, if I need help and I try to communicate as a baby that I need help, do I have that Safety there that someone will help me and listen to me. Um, and as we get older, right, we, we learn even more, right. We learn like how, how does, you know, my mother or my father, how do they deal with emotions? Right. Can I understand their emotions? Like their facial expressions? How did they deal when they're under stress? All of these patterns get patterned into us really young. Right. So it's almost like a set of rules. How to give and receive love. And, uh, most people don't have actual memory before they're five. Um, but your subconscious mind remembers these. So when I'm talking about patterning, this goes into our subconscious mind, right? Um, and it sets forth. some very, very important things with how we are going to present ourselves in the world later on. So this is like the earliest exposure really, really does impact us, right? So we're going to dive into this, but you know, just to sort of give you a sense, some children grow up with a great deal of emotional attunement and they believe that it's safe and life is all about making connections. You could imagine that lens, that's a beautiful lens, right?

I'm safe to make connections. I'm safe to communicate. are some children that grow up and they don't feel that sense of safety. And, um, there's a whole bunch of scenarios we can talk about, but essentially they see the world something they need to survive.

Angelo Santiago: Right. Mm.

Attachment Styles in Romantic Relationships

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: Every single one to our friends, to our family, to our colleagues, to our romantic partners and attachment styles is most often talked about in the context of our romantic partners. And there's a simple reason for that, because when we're in a romantic partnership with someone, uh, they're generally the person that's closest to us. They're generally the person that we are affording the highest degree of trust to, uh, which mirrors the relationship that we once had in our earliest days where we were dependent on someone. And so, um, you know, if we have wounding from our childhood, um, it tends to get most prevalently triggered by our romantic partner.

Like, like your partner could likely trigger you in a way that you wouldn't. If your friend said the same thing, you wouldn't care, but your

Angelo Santiago: Yes.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: and it triggers you a different way. And that's because. There's, there's a depth of connection there and trust and emotional bond that's closest to what you once had with your parents. Um, but that's not to say that attachment styles don't impact us again with all relationships that we have. And most importantly, Angelo, the relationship we have to ourself.

Angelo Santiago: Yeah, that's that's incredible. I love what you closed out with there. Like, why is it that I am a certain way when my wife says something to me, like it, it stings me a little bit. But if somebody else were to say, like, it just brushes off my shoulder and it is that level of trust and connection that you're talking about.

you know, in the relational work that I love to do, and one of my teachers, uh, Talks about like, we, we sometimes marry our unfinished business. Those things that we faced in childhood that never got taken care of. They show in this beautiful way to trigger the heck out of us, but also invite us to heal through it.

So let's go back. We're talking about early childhood. This is unconscious, you know, development, uh, in, in our connection styles and our attachment styles. And then we, we, we start getting older. We start developing friendships. We start learning new things and we start getting into. Um, let's say now our romantic connections and let's bring this to fast forward.

I know there's a lot that could happen there, but we're talking to, um, adults. We're talking to men who are married, who are trying to figure out a little bit more about themselves. Like, why do I act this way? Like what, you know, it's like my, my, my partner's telling me, my spouse is telling me that every time they.

Say something to me, I close off or I run away or don't want to be around them. Like, do you want to say about that? Like, what can we, we learn about ourselves through these attachment styles? Right.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: because this really is rooted in some very real, you know, um, behaviors that are problematic in some relationships, right? Not, not at all. Um, what I want to first start by saying is, is that, um, attachment styles, Everyone has an attachment style. It's not a mental illness.

It's not a personality disorder. We don't diagnose people. So we all have a set of patterns that we learned from childhood. Right. So, uh, remember I talked about the sub one group of people who feels that the world is about connection and the other group of people feels that the word is the world is about survival. um, and we're gonna, we're gonna dive into this a little bit, but, um, essentially what we do as humans. Is we develop a set of patterns, right? That like emotional patterns, thought patterns, behavioral coping mechanisms that are intended to try and keep ourselves safe. Okay. And so, um, you know, there's a very specific subset of, of these attachment styles that are quite avoidance. Um, and all of these behaviors again, um, It's because we were modeled certain behaviors in childhood. Uh, and what's interesting to learn also is that because we learned this, we also can unlearn this, right? This is not a life sentence. Like, you learned this stuff in childhood, you can also unlearn it.

Unlearn it. So let me back up a little bit.

Exploring Secure Attachment

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: There is what we call secure attachment and insecure attachment. So secure attachment is what I was describing early on about half of our population. The statistics right now in North America are in between 40 and 60%. Um, so I usually landed 50 percent of the population.

It's estimated to have a secure attachment, and that means that they came out of a home where their caregiver, their parents. Was emotionally attuned to them most of the time, like in a reliable, healthy way. So if they express themselves, um, you know, there was room for their emotions. Um, they, um, they were validated, um, you know, they were listened to. They, they were modeled on what different emotions were, how to handle certain emotions. Right. I, I understand you're feeling angry right now. What's a way that we can work together to deal with, to deal with this feeling, right? Like those conversations took place. And so these kids grew up understanding emotions are just a part of me. There's no, there's no, there's no shame there. Um, I can, you know, just deal with it and communicate that I'm feeling sad at this moment and it's safe to do that. So these are people who are have secure attachments and they do very well in relationships. They've got a very healthy relationship to boundary setting.

They understand themselves very well and their own needs. They generally have, you know, a very good level of, Um, communication style. They're not the ones who are afraid to say, uh, to say no. They're not the people pleasers. Um, they are not the ones who are emotionally volatile. Like, you know, you're crying one minute, you're upset one minute, you can't get off the couch one minutee, this is not the group.

Angelo Santiago: I'm just going to say, pause you for a moment because I'm actually shocked that the number is 40 to I'm not gonna lie. When you said that, I was like, oh, yeah, hold on. Let's do another study here because I'm like, where are these 50 percent of the population and maybe they're just. It just goes unnoticed a little bit because they are kind of more calm and even keeled, like you said.

But, um, you know, considering the number of, of self help and personal development and growth and, you know, whether it's podcasts, YouTube channels, therapists out there doing this work, I would think the number would be much higher. But I'm really happy for those people. I can't say I'm one of them, but,

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: I

Angelo Santiago: but

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: most people actually do comment on the statistics right now in social sciences. Everything is self reported, right? So there might be a bit of a margin of error there, but we use,

the best methodologies that we have.

Insecure Attachment Styles: An Overview

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: I think it's also important to note that I'm going to talk about several categories of attachment styles.

Um, but generally people fall Let's say they fall secure, but they might lean in another direction. So it's very rare for people to fall smack in one category. So it's a continuum, So a lot of what I'm going to talk about next in terms of insecure attachment style is, um, we're going to be highlighting some of the more extreme behaviors.

Angelo Santiago: great.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: And some of the more extreme patterns. And so you could have someone, and this all has to do with triggers, right? So who's securely attached still has triggers. they still have things that, you know, they still have wounding, but, but smaller. It's not as significant. And so when they are triggered, they're often able to communicate while they're triggered and they're able to get back to a baseline of emotional regulation much faster. So I'm not, I'm not painting a picture of perfect humans, you know, listen, if you disrespect someone, regardless of what attachment style they are, it they're, they're going to have a response, the level of

different.

Angelo Santiago: Yeah. So as you go into these different attachment styles that you're going to lay out in front of it, I just want to prep the, the, the listeners or those watching that it's like, like you said, it's a continuum. This isn't, this isn't you at a hundred percent all the time. This is how you are, no matter who's talking.

This is like on a bad day, you Everything seems to be pushing your buttons and how you respond or react to the situation that's right in front of you. There's a piece of what Bev you're about to share with us that comes out. That is like the thing that's driving the bus per se of, of like how you react.

Um, so again, this isn't a diagnosis. This isn't criticism. This is just awareness. This is good information. So as you listen to these, you know, Take it in, be honest with yourself, right? Self report is this me? Is there truth in this about me? Because it may help you a little bit further down the road. So go ahead.

Let me pass it back to you, Bev.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: it's such a great point. So the first and foremost, we do this work for ourselves. because those that have insecure attachment styles, because they came out of homes and that they didn't, they didn't learn the modeling or they didn't have that emotional attunement. Um, they are generally emotionally dysregulated. and this is a very, very difficult place to, to be in, right. When we're emotionally dysregulated, we're in a fight or flight state. We're not thinking rationally. We're not nearly as creative. We're not logical. We're not present. We're not. So we're, we're, we're keeping ourselves in a chronic state of stress. Right? And so the idea here is, is that if you can figure out what your core wounds are from childhood, you can actually reprogram them. We can do this work at a subconscious level, which has this incredible impact. And then changing your thought process, your emotional patterns, your coping mechanisms, all of that good stuff.

So you work on yourself first. And the by product is your relationships with other people become much smoother, right? So this is, this is always about understanding your own mind. I can tell you when I, when I found this work many years ago, I, I had been dealing my whole life with generalized anxiety, panic attacks. Uh, and I just didn't understand. You know, how could I get out of this? And I had tried different modalities of therapy and, um, my attachment style and how to work towards secure attachment me was the changing. That was, that was the big aha moment. now I wake up and I don't feel anxious anymore.

And I, and I have a joy to my life that I didn't experience before. So I, I, you know, when I meet with people, I say, do the work for yourself,

Angelo Santiago: Right.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: feel better. Right.

Angelo Santiago: I Okay.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: within insecure.

It it's, there are subcategories. Okay. So, uh, I'm sure you've heard people talk about four different attachment styles. So what they're talking about is that there's one secure and there's three insecure.

Anxious Preoccupied Attachment

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: Now the insecure attachment styles, we have something that's called anxious preoccupied. So the anxious attacher is like on one side.

And then on the other side of the continuum is dismissive avoidant. So that's the avoidance attacher. then you have this category in the middle called the fearful avoidance, which is also sometimes called disorganized attachment. Okay,

Angelo Santiago: Right. Right.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: when, when, when you're invalidated, when you're put down, uh, when, you know, maybe, maybe mom had too many kids to raise and, and you didn't get the attention you needed when you're not praised, um, you know, for your ideas. Uh, and the emphasis is more, for example, on just like Your achievements or if you're parentified, which is like an example of like, you know, being given responsibilities, you know, ahead of your, your age, right? So maybe, maybe you were a teenager and you had to take care of the younger siblings and get them to school and you had to, and you had to cook and yeah, all of these scenarios leave. Uh, an individual feeling like they themselves didn't matter. The only thing that was important in that scenario was to please the caregiver. these are the roots of people pleasing. Right. Uh, and this is one of the trauma responses that someone who has anxious preoccupied attachment will actually, uh, exhibit most of the time. And so these are people who typically feel alone. They feel sad. They feel anxious. They feel overwhelmed. They're carrying core wounds. Of I will be abandoned because they've experienced it before and it and it feels like like such an incredible threat to their survival. So I will be abandoned. I will be alone.

I will be excluded. I'm unlikable. And it goes on and on. And so you could imagine how those core wounds will color their perception of how they show up in the world. Um, and most people are, most people are totally unaware of these patterns and core wounds that they have, um, unless they have done the work, right? So one of the interesting things that you can do to figure out what someone's core wounds are is just listen to what they're complaining about.

Angelo Santiago: Mmhmm.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: Like what, like, like what's irking at you, right? And you'll, you'll typically find like thematically, you know, I feel like I'm not being seen. I feel like I'm not being respected.

I feel like I'm losing my freedom. Like thematically people will talk about. the same things, but in indirect ways. So it's sometimes kind of difficult without the help of a therapist to actually uncover these core wounds. Um, but what's interesting about this group is, um, they are, they are very friendly. Um, they're generally very kind. Um, they put a lot of emphasis on romantic relationships and they move very fast. their, in their, any type of personal relationship.

So, um, you know, what's interesting again is that these folks didn't learn how to self soothe when they were younger. So they're extremely reliant on external sources for validation, reassurance, soothing, um, for them to be alone in extreme cases is like corporal punishment.

Angelo Santiago: Right,

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: by people all day long. when I say that your attachment style actually impacts like almost every aspect of your life, it really does. Now, coping mechanisms, um, they will usually people please, or they will fight as well if they feel that someone is pulling away from them because the idea of someone abandoning them, that being their core wound, stabs them in the heart in a way that it's hard to understand for someone who doesn't carry that core wound.

Angelo Santiago: right.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: Who never experienced that before. So that's where you see some of these behaviors that people like to call is needy, clingy drama. Like

call you all time. So, um, you know, uh, Like, I know your show is mostly men, like, so, you know, if a woman comes home and, you know, you guys are arguing about something and, and you're trying to take space and she's coming towards you and she's like, no, we need

about it now.

I can't go to sleep angry. I don't want this to last another three days. And so. What that person is trying to do is she's trying to regulate her, like her dysregulated emotion system. And she needs you to help her do that because she's

self soothe, which would be in complete contrast, likely to the way that you want to handle conflict and what feels good to your nervous system.

Angelo Santiago: Right.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: get a lot of conflict is in communication style and and coping mechanisms.

Dismissive Avoidant Attachment

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: so I'm gonna put the anxious preoccupied Aside for a moment, I'm going to talk about dismissive avoidance. So by the way, we often talk about, uh, anxious preoccupied as the woman and the dismissive avoidance as the man, um, attachment styles are not gendered.

Angelo Santiago: hmm.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: means, you know, as humans, you can feel, you know, lots of different emotions. It depends on the exposure you had early on. It depends a little bit on socialization as well, right? And so there's plenty of men who are anxious and plenty of women who are dismissive. I myself fall very strongly in the dismissive camp. So just to dispel Any sort of, you know, thoughts that, that all women are like, no, it's actually attachment styles are not gendered at all. So.

Angelo Santiago: And you know, like, I want to add to that because you said, yes, this shows up most strongly in romantic relationships, but it's across the board. And so if I think of myself of, yeah, when I'm feeling kind of overwhelmed by say my wife, like maybe there's a tendency and certainly a lot more in the past before I.

Did my own work on this is that I would run away. I want to, I would want to close the door. I'd want to take my own space. I'd want to get out of there, like, leave me alone. Um, but then the reality is that if I look at like friendships, that's not the same scenario, you know? Like if, if I have somebody that.

Navigating Avoidant Attachment in Relationships

Angelo Santiago: That I care about. That's a friend, you know, maybe I will lean in a little bit more and be like, Hey, are you okay? Like, let me, let me be there for you. Like, instead of trying to run away from them, like there is something different there and goes again, whether it's, you know, your workplace or family members, even, I mean, there's, you know, you, We could go all over the place with this, but let's stick with the romantic relationship because that's kind of the core of the show here.

Um, so yeah, I can relate to, uh, myself leaning more in the avoidant side of the scale in my partnership. Um, it still shows up on a bad day, certainly not nearly as much as it used to, which, you know, I'm super grateful for and the quality of my marriage reflects that, um, and understanding kind of where my wife, you know, Was on that spectrum that you described has also helped that like, she tells me exactly what she needs to hear from me for her nervous system to calm down.

Cause she is a little bit more, um, you know, feels that that level of abandonment is a fear for her. And, and so every time I want that space, it triggers that in her. So, like you said, it's like when you're opposed on that spectrum, that's when the challenges show up. So go ahead and so take us through a little bit through the avoidance side of the attachment styles.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: Yeah, you bring up such great points. Thank you.

Understanding Dismissive Avoidant Attachment

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: Um, so, so, you know, again, those who grew up with a dismissive avoidant attachment style also came out of a home where they felt unsafe, usually a home where there was neglect. you know, it could be a very strict home. It could be a highly religious home.

It could be a home where the parents really just didn't see the kids. The kids were validated, you know, for achievements, but nothing else. The kid could have been heavily punished if, you know, there were certain emotions that they, that were allowable and not allowable. So there's all sorts of scenarios, but the child was emotionally neglected and left alone.

Probably a lot of the times with their own feelings to work it out on their own. And so they develop a sense of, you know, uh, to survive in this world. I have me, myself and I, uh, and I, uh, I, you know, I become overly self reliant. hyper independent. Uh, and then, you know, some of the core ones that I have is, you know, I'll lose my freedom, my independence.

I will feel trapped. I will.

Challenges Faced by Dismissive Avoidants

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: So, um, are folks who are generally very, very slow moving in relationships. Um, it's very difficult to sort of build a level of trust with them because they didn't learn trust. early childhood. Um, they also didn't learn very much about emotions, particularly this group. So like if, you know, a parent is very stoic, or maybe, you know, maybe a parent is emotionally unavailable. Um, they really didn't learn how. to handle emotions. So this particular group does an exceptionally good job of just pushing all the emotions down. What we often see with dismissive avoidance is that, um, they experience anger and rage. More than any other group, because those seem to be the only acceptable

feelings that they had at that point in time.

Right? Um, so, so that's an interesting one, but, um, they, they struggle in relationships to be able to open up, and to connect on an emotional level, uh, especially if the other partner is wanting a level of emotional depth.

Emotional Struggles and Coping Mechanisms

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: Um, they struggle with this because they're disconnected from their own self, right?

So it's something that they just haven't learned to do just yet. They have kept themselves safe by building a fortress around them,

Angelo Santiago: yep.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: Whether they realize it or not. And then some, you know, well intended person comes along and tries to love them. And they're like, You're getting too close. You're getting too close.

I'm getting the ick. It doesn't feel good. My anxiety is going up. I must run. And so this is what avoidance do is, is that they're coping. The way that they cope with things is they stonewall, they don't engage. Um, they won't answer texts. They won't pick up the phone. They won't speak to you for three days.

They'll walk out of a room. Because they feel so overwhelmed by their emotions and confused because they don't, again, they, they don't really know the emotions that they're feeling. They don't even when sensations come up in the body and it feels bad. I'm like, Oh, it's my just get rid of that feeling.

Right.

these are very, very rational thinkers. Um, they're very logical. It's like, heard, I've heard dismissive avoidance say, I don't do feelings.

Personal Experiences with Avoidant Attachment

Angelo Santiago: Bev, thank you for describing me

a few years ago. is,

I can relate to absolutely everything that you shared, both from the, like building the fortress to the logical self, to being disconnected from my emotions, from having the person who's trying to love me and me, Pushing that away with all sorts of, you know, actions and decisions and words.

And that just is when I look back on it, I'd be like, man, what, what a state I was in, you know, and, and how grateful I am to not be in that state anymore to really, let me reemphasize, if you're listening here and you find yourself in one of these states to know that. That's not like the sentence for the rest of your life.

You're not stuck there. Like Bev mentioned, you can unlearn it. You can relearn ways of, of relating and, and developing a secure attachment style. So, so found me and that's exactly where I was as dismissive avoidant. that, that feels, you know, if, if you can relate with that, you can hold your hand up, say, yeah, me too.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: yeah. And I'm so glad you said that, but, but I too was dismissive of wood. And so I, I, I speak about it from a personal perspective as well. There were points in my life where, you know, I, Like it was only recently in the last couple of years where I've learned that I, I actually enjoy cuddling. I, before I like, it gave me the ick.

I was like, Hmm, it doesn't feel kind of, it feels unsafe. It doesn't feel comfortable. It doesn't, uh, and so. But that's because my thought pattern was don't get too close to someone, right? Subconsciously, it wasn't on a conscious level. Now, the interesting thing is the core wound that the dismissive avoidant carries it's a shame wound. if you get too close to me, you'll also realize that I'm defective.

Angelo Santiago: Yeah.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: And you will reject me in the same way my parents did.

Angelo Santiago: Yeah.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: when

at it this way and, and, you know, uh, a lot of people will go, well, I don't feel that way. And I said, I'm like, I didn't ask how you feel. This is a wound that's deep in your pattern.

Right. And you may not realize that it's impacting what you do, but there's a reason why you feel unsafe in letting people into your emotional world. So all the things that you do. you know, uh, someone who's dismissive avoidance will be very careful around their space. They don't easily invite you into their home.

They're very careful with their time. and it's, it's not because they're not generous. It's because they need a fair amount of alone time and freedom. To regulate their own nervous system, right?

Bridging the Gap Between Different Attachment Styles

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: Which is totally opposite from the anxious preoccupied who needs someone else to step in to help them regulate. So now you have a scenario where you potentially have two people dating or married and they have completely different coping mechanisms.

Angelo Santiago: Right.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: this is where the challenge comes in because it comes from the same, the same place. Both of them grew up in a home where they felt unsafe. have this unsafe wound.

It may look a little different. needs to do this to feel safe. The other one needs to do this to feel safe and they're polar opposites. So how do you bring those folks together? that's where we start off on our, on our next, our next podcast, because there really is, there are ways to bridge. To bridge the gap there, right? Understanding and awareness is like the most important thing you can do. Like if, if, if your wife, for example, is coming at you and she's saying, well, we have to talk about it now. It's because for her, the emotions feel so overwhelmingly big that she can't even think about the idea of waiting another day to talk to you about it. It's so disruptive to her nervous system. It causes her that much anxiety. So, It's, uh, it's interesting. Now, these two groups also, there's a lot of when we talk about coping mechanisms, there's quite a bit we see of addictions in these groups, a little bit more so dismissive avoidance. So what dismissive avoidance will do is they will numb their pain. Or they'll numb their emotions. If they feel their emotions, they'll numb it even further down. And so it's very common to see alcohol drinking, sorry, same thing. Drugs, gambling, all sorts of things. Uh, porn, anything to sort of numb that emotion. Now the

Angelo Santiago: Yep.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: will also use. is also very, I would say, right for addiction because their emotions are, are so big, they're trying to dampen them down as well. and so you might see like binge eating, you might see like excessive shopping. You might, there's all sorts of things that, that we do to sort of ourselves or run away from these really uncomfortable feelings that we're having the end of the day. That's what this work is about. It's about facing this. It's about being

and saying, Hey, I do have these feelings and that's okay, I can learn to regulate and then I can have a much better, clearer conversation with my partner.

Angelo Santiago: Love it, Bev. This is so good. And, and like you mentioned, there's, and how I started, you know, the introduction to this episode is like, there is extreme amount of depth here. There's so much for us to talk about and how this leads to communication, how to leave. This leads into intimacy. This leads into conflict resolution in marriage.

Like, All those things to help you be a better husband, to help your marriage flourish. There has to be a willingness for you to see your part, right? Sometimes it's really easy in relationship to look at your partner and be like, well, if they didn't do X, Y, and Z, then I wouldn't do that. Right? Like that's putting it on them.

And yes, they have their part too, but you can't control that. You can control how you show up.

Practical Advice for Couples

Angelo Santiago: I want to leave, you know, those that are listening here with a little piece of. Something that has helped me and then I invite you to kind of share a little bit for them. Like what's, what are some actionable steps that they could take just today?

Nothing major, but just to get them moving till we get to talk again. Um, for me, the one thing I've learned is that, you know, in, in your marriage, you both have the right to, to be triggered and be dysregulated. You just can't do it at the same time. you has to do your best to, to take a breath, to calm your nervous system, to come back to that wise adult self.

In your brain that's able to look at the person across from you and be like, this is the person that I love. This is the person that I care about. And can I give them what they need right now? Even though it's like, like you said, the ick, even though it's like the thing that I least want to do right now, can I stand in my center and my groundedness and, and tell her that, Hey, I'm not going anywhere.

What do you, I'm here. I'm listening. What do you need? Right. Or if it's the opposite way around. Can your partner do that from you? And when they do that for you, can you see it? Can you receive it instead of kind of keep going on the attack or keep going on the running away, right? If you're able to stay in your grounded, centered self.

While your partner is having a bad day, that's a good day for the marriage. Um, it's easier said than done, but even if you do another saying from, from one of my mentors is like, even if you do this badly, you're already doing better than a majority of the people out there, but you have to give it a shot.

So I just want to leave the listeners with that and the people watching with that, that what would you want to say for somebody who has been like, Oh man, yeah. I am the dismissive avoided my partners, the anxious preoccupied. We get into that. Circus, Ferris wheel every single day. What would you want to say to them to just like baby step it to the next part of today?

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: Uh, it really is a great question. So, uh, the tagline of my company is love isn't blind. Love is learned. So it is a learned skill. emotional regulation is a learned skill. and if you did not learn it in your family of origin, which many of us didn't, there's no shame, there's no blame. You learn it later and that's okay too. Right. So, um, I would invite people to start their journey towards awareness. Um, and one of the, you know, fun ways you can do that on my website, it's SecurelyLoved.Com There's a little button at the top that says free attachment quiz. You can do this alone. You can do it with your partner. It doesn't matter.

The results go just to you. It's private. It doesn't go to anyone else. Um, and, and you answer a couple of questions and it'll give you an idea of where you fall on the scale. Uh, and I would, you know, if it interests you. Uh, I would start doing a little bit more reading. There's a lot of content on YouTube, good, valuable content. and you know, when I say that your attachment style truly does impact quality of the relationships that you're going to have throughout your life. That is a very true statement. So if you're on the road to wanting to improve your relationships, romantic or otherwise, um, know, a little bit into attachment styles.

I think you will be very, very surprised. Um, and we also, we also, uh, offer like a free 20 minute consult if you want to consult with us. So there's lots of like easy ways to start thinking about attachment styles and then, um, start your journey there.

Relationship Scenario and Suggestions

Angelo Santiago: That's great, Bev, and I'm going to drop some links in the show notes. So if this has piqued your interest, you want to learn more. You can check out securely love. There'll be a link in the show notes. You can also reach out to Bev and all the practitioners that work there. Um, and also your YouTube channel, which has more interviews, more content that, that you've already done.

So the information is out there. The desire to learn a little bit more to lean in to this thing that may feel uncomfortable because you are learning Experiences about yourself that you're maybe not super proud of. I know that was the case for me. I had to face that I had to take off the mask, put down the fortress walls and get real with myself.

Um, so that's a huge piece. I'm going to make sure that, um, If you want to connect with Bev, go to the show notes. I got that taken care of. And Bev, I want to end the show like I end all shows with a little bit of a scenario. And based on the scenario, and I know it's limited information, but based on your expertise and you hear somebody come to you with this scenario, What you would want them to know, what would you encourage them to do?

Um, and just anything else that you could give us the listeners and those watching, um, a little bit of insight into what you think. So this message comes in and says, so my wife is upset that I talk to my friends on the phone a good amount of time each day and I usually spend about an hour talking to a few buddies as I do stuff around the house. She's upset that I don't talk to her more and says I make an effort to do things with them, but not her.

She says that I don't want to go anywhere with her or do anything with her, that I don't plan things that she wants to do. Neither her nor I can recall me refusing to do anything she has asked to do in the last couple of years. And I ask her, What are your plans for the weekend? Do you want to do anything?

And all I get is an I don't know or maybe. She says that I should just know what she wants to do and do things she wants to do. I don't know what she wants because she won't tell me. I recently got into mountain biking and tried to include her to get her a bike, but she refused.

I've asked her about hiking, disc golf, a wide array of things, and she always says she doesn't want to do that, but then complains when I don't plan things she wants to do. So this goes on a little bit longer and longer, but that's the situation that this married couple is in. What would you want to say to the person that's writing this?

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: So I'm going to say, first off, um, us as humans, we are really bad at mind reading. It's not a skill that we have. And, and we, we do this sometimes where we're so convinced in our own perspective, we're like, well, it's just obvious, but it's not. especially if you have different attachment styles, your expectations are completely different, right? Um, and so, you know, someone who's anxious, preoccupied, might think that it's normal to spend all your time with your spouse and someone who's dismissive of, uh, avoidant might think that, you know what, a little bit here and there. Like, so even your idea of how much time you spend together would be different unless you specifically talk about it and negotiate, right? So, um, if it's the wife in this case that is not being clear, like, I've asked, what is it that you want to do? And she doesn't tell you, well, she really should spend a little time thinking about what brings her joy. is the type of, you know, time that she wants to spend with her husband? Is it going for a hike?

Is it going for a fancy dinner? Is it cuddling on the couch? But she has to figure out what's going to bring her pleasure and what's going to meet her needs. So I don't think that the wife has been fair in this case because I think that she's expecting her husband to mind read. And that's just, it might be also that the wife just doesn't know, right?

I don't think she's maliciously saying, I want you to figure it out. I think she doesn't know. So that's some of the

do here is, is that we talk about how to, you know, what are your personality needs? What is it that you need to feel content and peaceful? Um, and so she has a little bit of work to figure out about what she really wants from, uh, her husband. now remember I said at the beginning, we can tell people's wounds by what they complain about. The one thing she's complaining about here. Is that he's on the phone with his buddies all the time and he doesn't speak to her. So that gives me some indication that she has some wound there about feeling unseen, unheard, unloved, not feeling like a priority, um, whatever it may be.

So that could be driving her behavior. Subconsciously. So I would say, if you know that this is irking your partner, then come home and spend 20 minutes chit chatting while you're preparing dinner with her before you pick up the phone and call the other three friends. Like fill that cup first. And it's an easy one.

She's complaining about it. Right? So, when a woman complains about the amount of time that a partner is spending with them or not spending with them, that's their way of saying, I feel disconnected from you, or I don't feel like you're making me a priority. So let me just decode that sentence. Right?

Angelo Santiago: I love that. Yep.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: So I think they

work to do.

Angelo Santiago: , I love that you pointed out that there is some information here of what she's asking for. And it may be how she's asking for it could use a little, you know, work for her to be like, Hey, what I really want is for you to just. Talk to me more.

And so maybe this guy is wanting to do more activities. Maybe he's a very physically active. That's what brings him joy and fun. And maybe that's not the same for her. So if I was talking to him, I'd be like, okay, well, you know, here's what she's asking for. Like, are you willing to give her some of this, even if it's not mountain biking and hiking and disc golf, maybe she doesn't want to do those things.

And then I can relate to this scenario because. You know, I would look at the things that my wife sometimes likes to do for fun and they don't necessarily match what I like to do for fun.

so that's where relationship comes in, relationality. Like, are you willing to be a better husband in the way of like finding some time and interest in the thing that your partner Loves doing for fun, even if it doesn't bring you the most ultimate joy, right?

It's not about sacrificing yourself, but it's about giving them something that brings them joy, which should bring you joy. That's, that's another thing I'll add. Yeah.

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: creates a sense of shared purpose. So like when, if you're like renovating a house or maybe you're both learning Spanish, or maybe, you know, you're planning your next trip because you want to see parts of Italy or whatever it is, um, that sort of shared There's like a, that shared purpose having that level of connection, I promise you it would make a world of difference.

Final Thoughts and Resources

Angelo Santiago: thank you so much. I just want to just extreme gratitude for you coming on here on the show, sharing so much of your wisdom, knowing that there's more. So if you're listening and you like what you've heard, just stick around. There's going to be more of this in the future. I guarantee it. This is an important topic and there's a lot here for us to unpack, uh, for ourselves.

So so much. For our marriage, for our relationships outside of our marriage, just how we interact as humans. Like this is key. So that thank you so much for being here. Is there anything you want to drop here on the show before we head out?

Bev Mitelman, M.A.: no, I just want to thank you for the opportunity and, and remind people that they can take the free quiz, uh, online at securelyloved. They can book myself or any of the practitioners I work with who are fantastic group. they do individual counseling group sessions, all that. It's all on my website. So if you're interested, please check that out.

Angelo Santiago: Check it out. Securely loved. Thank you for joining us on better husband. If you feel like you got any value from this episode, Make sure to hit that follow or subscribe button. If you have any questions, comments, or have a situation in your marriage that you want for me to cover on the show, you can text me or email me using the links in the show notes.

I'm here every week to help you become a better husband. I'm Angelo Santiago. Thanks again for being part of this community and I'll see you on the next one.