What Every Husband Should Know About Forgiveness and Trust with Dr. Bruce Chalmer

Introduction: Dr. Bruce Chalmer

Angelo Santiago: Welcome to better husband, the show that helps you answer the simple question. How can I be a better husband? I'm Angelo Santiago and today I'm joined by Doctor Bruce Chalmers. Dr. Chalmer is a psychologist with over 30 years of experience working with couples. And he's the author of three powerful books, including his most recent betrayal and forgiveness, how to navigate the turmoil and learn to trust again.

In this episode, we're diving into some of the

biggest challenges men face in their marriages. rebuilding trust, overcoming defensiveness, and creating a deeper connection with your partner. We'll also explore Dr. Chalmers seven words framework, be kind, don't panic and have faith and how those simple principles can help you grow as a husband.

Stick around. This is going to be a good one.

Um,

Angelo Santiago: Hey, Bruce. Thank you so much for being here.

The Importance of Trust in Marriage

Angelo Santiago: Uh, I'm really excited to get into this conversation because trust is such a key aspect of a solid, strong marriage. And we all know that the breaks of trust. Do happen, whether, like I said, at the beginning, big or small, there are actionable steps that we can take in our marriages to rebuild that trust and foster that love and connection once again.

So this is a hugely important topic and I'm excited to get your expertise on it. So thank you for taking the time to be here and share your wisdom and your insights with us.

Bruce Chalmer: Well, thank you, Angela. It's delightful to be here and I'm, I'm happy to talk about it. Always happy to talk about the books that I wrote, of course. And you know, I, I wrote this last book precisely as you were describing, it's such a big issue And so many of the folks who consult me in, you know, in their relationships, uh, it's super important.

It comes up a lot. I, I, I sort of did a seat of the pants guest about what percentage of the couples I work with are dealing with some kind of betrayal. And like in the first session, that's what they're talking about. It's, I don't know if it's half, but it's off. it's close to half. It's a lot, lots of, lots of infidelity, lots of other sorts of things that also qualify in people's minds as betrayal.

So I wrote a book about it because I learned a lot from the folks I've worked with.

Angelo Santiago: Yeah, and that actually was going to be my first question, like the inspiration about it. You actually saw a need for this and you saw people coming in with these big problems. And like I said, they can also be small breaches of trust, but I know that for myself, you know, I've gone through this in my long marriage where there have been moments of Rebuilding and, um, understanding like the stages of how to do that and that it takes time.

Common Misconceptions About Rebuilding Trust

Angelo Santiago: Um, so just to like get going from the beginning, when people come to you or even they're, they're seeking out your book, they may have an idea of how to rebuild trust, but is there any kind of common misconception that couples or individuals have about rebuilding trust that, that you've seen in, you know, the decades of work that you've been doing this?

I'll leave it at that.

Bruce Chalmer: know, the person who did the cheating, the person who was cheated on, they're, they're hurt, they're upset, all of the above. And when, what they're saying when they come in is we just want to go back to how it was. It was good before. We just want to go back to how it was. That's a misconception. Because you can't go back to how it was, and in fact, how it was is what got you to the problem. you, there, you can't anyway. There's no way you can forget that it happened. It's, you can pretend to forget that it happened, but it doesn't actually work. And moreover, if the relationship is going to survive, the only way it's going to survive is by being better than it was, which is actually good news. And in fact, you know, what, one of the things I find most inspiring is when I've worked with a couple that does a lot of hard work to be able to rebuild

Okay.

you know,

Um, Uh, Uh,

Angelo Santiago: Yeah, absolutely. And whether it's in the marriage space and this infidelity that you're talking about, I can relate to the story that you're telling of, um, you know, not, not necessarily being happy about the situation of what happened, right? The pain that you've gone through, the suffering that you've gone through, but once you are on the other side and you can look back and be like, wow, that really hurt.

But where it's gotten us, like you said, it's not back the way it was. It's somewhere new. It's somewhere where there, there is the possibility for, for reconciliation, for forgiveness and to rebuild what a new marriage, a new relationship can look like. So, I want to talk about that process because it's, it's.

Clearly going to be a long process. Both people have to go through their own stages of that experience. And then the relationship has to go through it too.

Stages of Rebuilding Trust

Angelo Santiago: Um, do you see sort of like, you know, how there's the, the stages of grief that is often described? Do you see like a, a pattern of stages that people go through in the process of rebuilding trust from like a major fracture, like infidelity or anything like that?

Bruce Chalmer: Yeah, you know, you mentioned the stages of grief, you know Elizabeth Kubler Ross, I actually mentioned her in the book And And it's, and I think even she pointed this out, when you talk about stages, it's, you know, you can have this implication that it always occurs in a particular order, you know, and, and it doesn't, the, the usefulness of understanding the notion of stages is just that, well, there's a lot of stuff that has to happen and it doesn't happen all at once.

So that's a really good thing to note. So from that perspective, Thank you. Absolutely. You know, it depends a lot on the nature of the betrayal. Uh, if it's some huge betrayal where somebody is looking at this other person, like, I don't know who you are anymore. I thought I could trust you. And now I don't even know if you mean well for me, you know,

Angelo Santiago: Yeah.

Bruce Chalmer: that's, there's a level of shock. in that, uh, that you have to get through and, you know, the, the Kubler Ross stages are useful there. It's like, well, there's denial and there's anger and there's bargaining and there's, you know, grief and there's acceptance, you know, all of the above or depression. I think

There

betrayed.

you

true for the one who did the betraying.

Addressing Betrayal and Infidelity

Bruce Chalmer: Some of what comes up in couples work in the early stages is they don't always agree if a betrayal has occurred, you know, somebody's feeling like I did like it did or they wouldn't be bringing it up, but the other person may legitimately not agree. You know, they may say. Wow. You're thinking of that as a betrayal. And I'm saying, I don't think that's a betrayal. You know,

So I've met couples where one person in this case, it would usually be a woman feels like it's cheating if he masturbates and he's thinking, don't think that's cheating,

Hmm.

it since I was 12, you know, I mean, it's, it's, it's the sort of thing that, um, they can legitimately disagree about. Or. What if he's looking at porn and for many, many more women than feel that masturbation would be cheating, many women feel like that somehow feels like cheating, you know, and where are the lines drawn, all of that stuff. So that's some of the early work that sometimes has to happen. Um, of course, when it's just clear that, no, he was having sex with somebody else and Their deal was monogamy and he knows it was wrong and she knows it was wrong.

And that's clear. They're usually not, you know, by the time they get to me with that's the situation, they're not arguing about whether it was cheating

Okay. I'm sorry about that. I'm sorry about that. Okay.

even if they can get to the point of understanding, even if they get to the point of forgiveness, and I'll talk about, more about forgiveness in a moment, if they can get to that point, they could still feel like, you know, I can forgive you in the sense that I don't have to be angry with you anymore.

I can understand where it came from, but I, just can't wrap my brain around staying married to someone who would do that.

Right.

at being able to get to forgiveness and then building trust.

So actually, I'm going to talk about stages. Let me, let me talk about it in those terms. In the way I think of it, precedes building trust. And, and it depends on how you use the word forgiveness. And I do write about this considerably in the book. There's basically, I mean, I'm oversimplifying, but there's basically two ways of using the word forgiveness and they're both, you know, they're both fine in common use. And one of them I like and the other I don't. The one I don't, but it's very, very common. If somebody says, well, I forgive you, what do they mean? What they mean is I'm willing to restore the relationship with you. I forgive you. I, guess, you know, I can, somehow I can get past what happened. Let's carry on as well as we can or as we did before or whatever. That's a sense of forgiveness. Sort of like, you know, when you forgive alone, You know, that, that word is used for alone. It makes sense. It's like, I forgive alone, which is, you know it's no longer alone. It's a gift. Forget about it.

Let's move on. That sense of forgiveness, it's, it's, powerful. Common parlance, but there's a problem with it, because that means you can't forgive someone unless they act in a certain way. In other words, you're forgiving someone is based on how they interact with you. It'd be very difficult to forgive somebody who keeps on doing what they were doing. It'd be very difficult to forgive somebody who doesn't express some kind of remorse for it, or doesn't express some sort of understanding of the fact that they hurt you, or something, you know. it, it puts the power on the side of the person who did the, the wrong. There's another way of understanding the term forgiveness that is my favorite way, and that, and I, I did not make up this phrase, I heard it somewhere.

I think it's fairly common in 12 step books. I think anyway, it's forgiveness is an inside job. So what do I mean by that? Well, that means if I forgive somebody, that means I get past the shock phase. I don't even have to be angry anymore. I can even develop some sense of understanding that lets me not go into a panic when I think about it.

In other words, I'm no longer obsessed with it. I'm no longer triggered by it, you know, to to speak in sort of trauma terms. I'm no longer traumatized by it. It's like, okay, well, it happened. it hadn't. It was bad. I was really hurt. what? I'm not panicked anymore. Now that's totally separate from what do I do about the relationship, which becomes the next question. And so that's the sense of forgiveness. I think I tend to think you can get there, then, then you can work on the relationship if you so choose. And that's where a lot of couples have to get before they can do a whole lot about building trust.

Angelo Santiago: So let's move now to.

Practical Steps to Rebuild Trust

Angelo Santiago: Like a practical situation, something going on that somebody's listening and, and, you know, let's bring it down a couple levels. Maybe it's not infidelity, but maybe it's something like you said, Hey, my partner talked to me.

My wife talked to me. She told me I really don't want you looking at pornography. That feels like a betrayal of trust. I feel like you're her. Thinking about other know, women when you're with me and I don't want you to do that. And the husband hears that and I'm like, well, okay, I guess I can try and do that.

But I, for a lot of men, I know that that is a big challenge. If it's something that they've, you know, have been in their life for decades, it's like to suddenly stop. It is a challenge because it's, it's, it's addictive. It's, it gets that, that dopamine rush going and say they agree to it. But now all of a sudden they're struggling and now they're back to watching pornography and they don't know how to open up to their partner and say like, Hey, this is happening.

I am having a hard time controlling this. I want to do better for you, but I feel like I'm failing. And so that like level of shame sometimes prevents people from even communicating. And now it becomes like this totally hidden thing. There's this fear of being discovered. Like, how do you actually have the conversation of like, I want.

To do the thing you're asking me for, but I'm, I'm still not capable of doing it. I'm still in a way breaking the trust here. Like what does that conversation look like?

Bruce Chalmer: I've had that conversation with many couples, actually, you know, variations on it. Uh, I would back up to the very beginning. the woman is expressing that exactly as you pointed out, you know, this is what I hear from women all the time What women find objectionable about men looking at porn is that it feels like infidelity because there he is Getting turned on by the well, I would say by the image, although she's not thinking of the image getting turned on by another woman You're not supposed to get turned on by another woman. I would start right from there and often do Where we talk about that. And I, of course, with all the folks I work with, I want to show great respect to everybody's point of view here, but none of them are the, none of them should be the last word. Because that's what gets you stuck and you, you, you know, you, uh, illustrated the pattern really well because what happens when you just take that as a given and the guy just says, Oh yeah, I get it.

Yeah, you're right. I won't do that because he doesn't want to. He doesn't want to make her feel bad. You're talking about a good guy here. You know,

Angelo Santiago: Right. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Bruce Chalmer: conversation and that, that little phrase, intimate conversation, that's sort of my key to everything, you know, if you can actually have a conversation where you both show up and let things be what they are, even though it's uncomfortable, you know, my, one of my catchphrases, I'm like a bad Borscht belt comic, you know, I have my catchphrases and my sticks, you know, one of my

Okay.

is the

Okay.

skill of intimacy is to tolerate it.

Anxiety rather than trying to eliminate it. You have to tolerate it. The conversation right from the get go there could be, would be wanting to ask the woman, what is it about his porn? When he looks at porn, what is it that really gets to you? And then I would ask him, well, you know, why do you do it? But also you, how do you, how do you relate to what she's saying?

Because the vast majority of us guys will say, Oh my God, it's not cheating on you. It's just an image. Okay. To us it doesn't feel like cheating. women, it often feels like cheating. And, you know, I've also pointed out sometimes, it's it's really all about validating everybody's concern without saying that ends the conversation.

I'll often point out, There's probably good evolutionary reason why women are offended by that, even though there's also good evolutionary reason why men operate the way we operate. The conversation goes when it doesn't work well is when the guy just tries to tell the woman, why do you, why do you have to think that way? And when the woman just tells the man, why do you have to think that way, as opposed to both of them saying, there's reasons why you think that way. You're different for me, aren't you? There's good reason for that. In fact, some of those differences are pretty attractive, but they also drive us nuts.

External Influences and Stigma

Angelo Santiago: The other thing I want to talk about is in, in rebuilding trust, especially in betrayal, you know, what, what you see a lot of on, you know, on the internet and, and, and it's just people sharing stories of where they've been betrayed.

My husband cheated on me, my wife cheated on me and the initial messages from the world out there is. Why are you still with them? Get them, dump them, get rid of them, right? So these outside forces have no idea what's going on internally. And so there's almost like a stigma within a couple that if there's been infidelity or if there's been a big breach of trust, whatever that may be.

It's like if anybody knew about it, they, they would tell us to break up. Why should I want to stay together? And what I would want to say, and then I want to hear what you would want to say is like, this is your life. This is your marriage. This is, it doesn't matter what anybody else thinks. You have to push those voices aside.

If you both want to work on this and get to that next place that you talked about at the beginning of the podcast, not the way things were, but the way things could be, it's going to take almost like an installation. Of the marriage to protect it in a way. So I I'd love to hear what you say about that in terms of, you know, the external factors coming in and, and kind of pushing the ship around, um, against its will.

Um,

Bruce Chalmer: don't want to blow up our life, and oh my god, if I've, if I

Silence.

um, somewhat cynical. And I, I say, you know, I'm, I say that with all due respect because there's lots of points of view and they all have their reason for existing. Yet, you know, I'll get comments on the videos that I post about this kind of stuff where some people just say you can never trust somebody who's cheated on you. And it's not a crazy notion. that it's difficult to trust someone who's cheated on you. No, I've actually seen relationships repair. And like we were saying before, and they're, they're grateful for having to go through it.

So that is, that is a difficult part of it. Having to recognize that there's lots of external forces and sorting out what you're going to take in and what you're not is often, it's just more pain dumped on the person who was hurt.

Angelo Santiago: Yeah,

Bruce Chalmer: Yeah. I do point out in the book, actually, you know, what you need, of course, from your friends. is not telling you what to do. What you need from a therapist is not telling you what to do, or from a clergy person is not telling you what to do. What you need is somebody who actually will sit with you where you are and back to you that, you know, the, the faith that you are a competent, person who can figure out your life, even when it's difficult. And that's going to actually help you make such decisions as you can make. And, know, and if, and I've said, I pointed that out in the book that, you know, that's the kind of friend you want. And if you are one of those friends, there's a special place in heaven for you, you know,

Angelo Santiago: Yeah.

Bruce Chalmer: that's the kind of friend you should be to somebody.

Actionable Steps for Better Husbands

Angelo Santiago: Well, let's transition a little bit to some actionable steps, some practical information that anyone who's listening right now that's listening and wondering, you know, how can I be a better husband in this way? How can I actually help rebuild trust over time in my marriage? Whether the, the, the breaking of the trust was something big, like we're talking about, or even like, you know, you have one, a partner who never shows up on time for dinner, says they're going to do something and they don't do it.

There's that lack of trust. There's like, why can't. I can't ask you for anything because I don't trust that you're going to actually do the thing. But now suddenly I have this realization that, you know what, they're right. Um, I, I want to rebuild the trust. Um, but as it may be just saying those words, you know, just telling your wife, like, okay, I promise from now on, it's going to be different.

I want to rebuild. That's not enough. Like there's going to have to be, you know, habits and practices that you're going to have to do every single day to slowly rebuild. So when you work with couples and you see they're in that process of rebuilding, they've gotten to the forgiveness point, they have the desire to be together and work on this.

What are some recommended practices that you have them do together or individually that guides them in the right direction?

Bruce Chalmer: Yeah. Well here comes a slightly grandiose statement, which I guess if, if you, you know, if you're gonna write books, you gotta have some degree of grandiosity in you. Um, the only thing that really rebuilds trust is mutual understanding. And I say that because, let me say some things that don't rebuild trust.

You know, being somebody's parole officer does not rebuild trust. Um, having, setting up like in the, let's you know, nevermind infidelity in the situation you described, which is also very common as of course as you point out, uh, that phenomenon where, let's say the guy. Keeps coming home late and not telling her, you know, and she has her

Okay. Okay. Okay. very much.

that you've been doing it. what's different. know, he could say, well, now I understand how much it bothers you. And she's thinking, are you that stupid? I mean, you know, you would have, if you'd given it half a moment's thought, you know, why wouldn't you have thought of that? You know,

Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. That was fantastic. Again, that's a kind of a sea of code for the next few slides.

you know, I think there's something about it where I'm just sort of feeling like you're trying to control me too much, even though that's probably not fair, but that's, I think it's this sort of adolescent feeling that's popping up in me, you know, and she's thinking, yeah, I can kind of see why that is because I sort of turn into your mom sometimes and you don't like that and I don't like that, but I don't want you to, you know,

Um,

the rules. So it's mutual understanding that produces trust.

So what does that mean in practice? That means being able to entertain, you know, if, if somebody has been resisting doing something, the other person wants, you better entertain why you better both of you be able to go into, why is that happening? You know, what's going on for you and be willing to be like politically incorrect, you know, willing to go to places that, Oh , I wish I didn't.

You know, like for men a lot, we often think women are idiots. Don't get me wrong. We're wrong about that. are flat out wrong about that. I mean, you know, I'm clear, but we act a lot. As if we think women are idiots and a lot of what we do is based on that kind of stereotype that we carry around with us, and it drives women nuts, of course, and I'm not trying to let women off the hook either.

By the way, women have all sorts of stereotypes that aren't very nice either, but you kind of have to face that because that's it. That sort of thing plays out in all sorts of ways that we don't notice. We make assumptions, you know, who's the one who's supposed to set up all the doctor's appointments?

Who's the one who's supposed to, you know, all the emotional labor that a lot of women will talk about, you know, why is it always the default default to the woman? On the one hand, you could say, Oh my God, that's evil. And men should learn how to be better. On the other hand, it's like, no, there's probably reasons why that comes to be, and we better be able to explore that. not trying to say that. You know, we should freeze everything in concrete in 1955, which, by the way, I'm old enough to remember 1955. I was four years old at the time, so there you go. You can do the math, you know, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying we have to accept that we're the ways we are probably for good reason.

And then, when you can get into it without shame, then you can actually discover the change will happen and change will happen organically rather than by imposing some sort of rule.

Angelo Santiago: So what about say, like we said, whoever's listening to us speak right now, they have a desire to do better. Uh, maybe they're actually taking the steps. So, you know, there's been an understanding of the breach of trust. There's been a desire of like, okay, this is how we're going to rebuild. I'm going to show up every single day and I'm going to do the right things.

I'm going to whatever it may be, stop looking at pornography or show up on time or make sure I. Do all the things that I said I was going to do and, and I'm doing them day in and day out, but for some reason, it doesn't feel like anything's changing. Maybe that their, their partner's not being receptive to the work that they're doing.

They still struggle to be like, I still don't know if I can trust you. And, and, and here they are, it feels like they're banging their head up against the wall because they're doing all the things that they feel like they're supposed to do and they're doing it right. But it's like they're, they're getting exhausted by it because it's not, they're not seeing the change that they were hoping for.

Um, what do you see in that process, both for the person being open to the receptivity to, of the change, but also the encouragement to, to the guy who is trying to do the right thing and, and not seeing the results yet.

Bruce Chalmer: Yeah, yeah, there are variations on that theme that I see, of course, a lot where any time if, you know, if I'm the one who's done the, the wrong, whatever it is, the, you know, the breaking of trust, big or small, and I'm trying to rebuild trust, then inevitably, I'm going to be the one who's more impatient that says, can't you get over this? That's invariably invariably pretty much invariably the case, you know, it's like, yeah, I'm not going to, I'm going to wish Kent, you know, it still about that time that I didn't call you before I came home late, you know, or, or more likely, is it still about that time three years ago that I cheated on you?

Yeah. Yeah. Frankly, it is still about that time. So. What do you do about that? You know, I, I note often that the trust has to be rebuilt in both directions, that it's not only that she's got to trust him if he's the one who did whatever the wrong thing was, got to trust that she can forgive him. that's not a given. In other words, it's You know, if you can't have a, can't, most people don't want a relationship where one person is the permanent villain and the other is the permanent victim. That is not a way that people want to live, mostly.

, if they're seeing a therapist, that's typically not what they're looking to achieve. so. It, It's one of the most unfair things about a lot of this. At a certain point, it falls to the person who was hurt to recognize the other person can't fix them. They're going to have to actually do the work of to heal or not. And it's, it can feel like a bitter pill to swallow. It's like, you mean I have to actually willingly say I'm not, I'm not going to blame everything on him anymore. And, And on his end, he's going to have to be able to say, I'm not willing to stay in a relationship where I am viewed as the permanent villain, even though God knows I deserve to have been viewed as a villain for what I did. I am resolving to do better. I, whether or not she trusts me, I can totally understand why she's cautious about it, but I'm not willing to stay in a relationship that is going to be You know, where I can't feel a sense of dignity and when they can actually get there, you know, that takes, that's an enormous amount of tolerating anxiety to be able to have that conversation and when they can do that, then they've got a shot.

And, you know, I also note, you know, this is with respect to that sort of situation. Lots of couples break up. Well, there's a brilliant observation, right? Took me years of graduate school to come up with that one, right? it's not, it's not quite half of first marriages in this country anymore, but it's in the forties, you know, it's well into the forties and

Yeah.

Um, I also recognize that in that evaluation of did it succeed or not? There are three different people involved in that evaluation. Me and my opinion should be the least important, of course. And then the couple, and they may differ on that. And I've met plenty of couples where one person thinks, Oh my God, this is just what we needed. And they break up because they have clarity and the other person maybe doesn't like that.

I've met couples where both parties realize, Oh my God, you know what? We're two decent people. We can even forgive each other, but we can't stay together. We're just not right for each other. You know, there are deal breakers that. And then there's the ones where they can both feel, you know, the the ones I like, the ones that give my heart a lift are where they both feel like, Oh my God, we're so much better off and we love staying together and thank you for this work.

And isn't that great? You know, those are the ones I hope for. But, but again, I don't count the others. I don't count the ones where they break up as necessarily a failure. That's often. what success looks like for them.

Maintaining Strong Trust in Relationships

Angelo Santiago: So let's close out here with uh, just a conversation for let's say it could be a newlywed couple or it could be a couple where things are going well. Like there has not been any betrayal. Like the trust is strong in the relationship and their intention is to keep it that way. Um, What proactive steps do you encourage, um, a husband to take or even the couple to take together to keep that strong trust intact?

Bruce Chalmer: Yeah. Great question. I mean, the two things occur to me. First, there's that seven words you mentioned in the intro. even have it on merch. this is A cup from our, uh, our podcast. and putting in a, plug for our podcast, which you're going to be a guest on, by the way. So I'm looking forward to it. Okay. Okay. Okay.

means, okay, we're on the same team here and you can't do that if you're in a panic. So that's where don't panic comes from. So learn how to recognize if you're on the verge of panic and try and intervene with yourself.

So you don't and the antidote to panic. Is what I mean by faith, and I don't mean necessarily religious faith, although religious faith is helpful for many people, but I mean, more generally, faith is when you have the sense that somehow there's some rightness about all this business, that reality is right to be what it is. so in that sense, that, it's, you know, what I was talking about when I was noting, hey, men and women are often different about things, and that's not bad. That turns out to be good. the sense of faith. It's like, okay. that leads to what I have also in my, you know, apparent willingness to be grandiose.

Again, I've decided is the one skill that solves all relationship problems. See, I should've just told you that right in the beginning. We wouldn't have to have this

Yeah. Bye bye. Bye bye.

annoying. My wife isn't nearly as annoying as I am. God knows. She's lovely about putting up with my being so annoying, you know, that, that phenomenon and, you know, I'm, I'm laughing about it and, but partly I mean it in a serious way.

The ability to be moderately annoyed as opposed to totally freaked out, because that's what lets you not panic. You know, moderate annoyance is another way of saying you haven't crossed over into panic. It's like, well, that's annoying, whatever. So do I take it up with her? Does she take it up with me or not?

She does or She doesn't, you know, and if she does great and if she chooses not to, that's fine. As long as it's just moderate. And if it gets to the point of saying, well, you know, I really do want to say something about this. It's still moderate if you're in that's in that place of saying, I don't have to think you're evil incarnate.

I just wish you would do what I, you know, our, our favorite go to is I wish you would wipe down the sink after you brush your teeth. You know, that's she, it took her several years to come up with telling me that. uh,

Okay.

over each other and make each other happy.

It's great. It puts a smile on both faces. And then the funny thing that happened with that one was I actually internalized it. I'm not doing it for her anymore. I'm doing it for me. It's like, no, I don't like it when I, when I leave water all over the sink either.

So I wipe, I wipe it down for me, you know, and it that benefits her too. So the point being, if you cannot panic. And if you can experience annoyance and not have it cross into panic, you'll be okay. You will, or you won't, you know, you maybe you'll encounter some dildo down the line, but if things look good for starters, that's the practices.

Those are the practices that will keep things going.

Angelo Santiago: Be kind, don't panic, have faith. I like that. I like what you're talking about in that don't panic in, in that annoyance that comes up. What I see that it's like, this is some information that there's something happening here that is kind of like getting under my skin. And then there's the question, like, is, is this something that.

Needs to be taken care of. Or like, do I need to just like relax a little bit? Um, and if it is, and here's what I always like to teach is like, if it is something that that needs to be changed in your relationship for whatever reason, if it feels like a big deal, then what I like what you said in your example, it's like have that conversation like, you know, in a good way, in in a respectful way, in a desire of like, hey, this This is what this does for me.

If you just wipe down the sink after you brush your teeth, um, because what that is, it's, it's more assertion up front and less resentment on the back, right? I, or I can say nothing and it's all this resentment keeps building, rebuilding, building, and then all of a sudden the dirty sink is going to, you know, lead to a ridiculous argument that is.

It's just could have been handled right then and there. So Bruce, it's been awesome talking to you.

Final Thoughts and Advice

Angelo Santiago: I really appreciate the decades of experience you've brought to, to better husband. Um, everything that you've shared, hopefully the, you know, if you're listening to this, something of this conversation has helped you today to get you in the direction of being that better husband, you know, you want to be and can be also.

So before we, uh, say goodbye, um, Where can people find out more about you get the book and all your other books as well. There's so much more that you've worked on beyond this, that I would encourage all the listeners to check out. And then if there's one last piece of advice, something that you came on here on your heart, there's like, you know, I just want to make sure that the guys listening get this piece.

What would that be?

Bruce Chalmer: Well, so I'll answer the first question first. My website is brucechalmer. com. Go there and it's got information about all the stuff, including the fact I do, uh, telehealth. So if people are interested in actually working with me, I accept couples basically as I work with a couple by telehealth. So if they're interested in that, they can find information about that at brucechalmer.

com. All of my books, as you pointed out, are, uh, there's information there as well. They're all available any place you can get books. And knows how to do that these days. Um, and in terms of, gee, what one bit of advice would I give? And again, I'm thinking, especially your listeners who are husbands, right?

That their husbands. Husbands who care, you know, what a great group of people you

Angelo Santiago: Yes.

Bruce Chalmer: that's there, there ought to be more of us. You should have a lot of listeners. I hope you do. Um, the, uh, the one bit of advice I would say is on the one hand, don't be ashamed of being a guy. It's okay to be a guy. And, um, I guess it's that point I mentioned earlier. Uh, we, as men, I think do need to be aware of some of the ways we have often thought about women that just don't serve us well in relationships with women. It's, it's much more about respect. It's about developing respect. That's been. It's really based on a sense of, you know what, they know some stuff we don't. We know some stuff they don't also, by the way. But they do know some stuff we don't. It's good to know that and respect it. And usually women respond well to respect. Well, so do we, don't we, you know, so it's, you know, learn how to respect your wife Even more than you do, genuinely, not just think you're respecting her because we all think we're respecting our wives, but um, really be open to that sense without going into being ashamed of who you are as a guy.

No, she wanted a guy. You should be a guy.

Angelo Santiago: very well said, Bruce. Thank you so much. Thank you for being here. Uh, once again, I'll have all the links in the show notes, check out brucechalmer. com and everything that he's written, get in touch with him. If you want to learn more And I just want to say for all you listening or watching this, thank you for joining us on better husband. I'm Angelo Santiago. Thanks for being a part of this community and I'll see you on the next one.